Comments on: The Degenerating ESB Discussion http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/ Ask forgiveness, not permission. Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:06:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Darach http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-118 Darach Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:18:28 +0000 http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/#comment-118 The same thing is bugging James Coplien: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=216434 He's tuned out all the religions. Sounds like you have too. This is good news. After all: What matters most to the hand that feeds? Generally speaking, it's operational scalability. The same thing is bugging James Coplien:

http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=216434

He’s tuned out all the religions. Sounds like you have too. This is good news.

After all: What matters most to the hand that feeds? Generally speaking, it’s operational scalability.

]]> By: Simple Life http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-103 Simple Life Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:37:04 +0000 http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/#comment-103 not a web v enterprise positioning protagonist, I don't believe in either. I took the phd work ages ago and read it on a beach full of great stuff other than PCs. Must have missed something but I agree it concrete example, how fierce markets work in fact, for REST to be about integration in my case and plenty of others that run and make money, it has to lose the idea that accessibility is the key. And it has to lose (or better put, accomodate far more than) HTTP for that matter. The world is full of non-REST systems and baking in some 'level of depth' where required simply isn't practical. I am more afraid it will cause another, gold-rush based on web, marketing and ads. not a web v enterprise positioning protagonist, I don’t believe in either. I took the phd work ages ago and read it on a beach full of great stuff other than PCs. Must have missed something but I agree it

concrete example, how fierce markets work in fact, for REST to be about integration in my case and plenty of others that run and make money, it has to lose the idea that accessibility is the key.

And it has to lose (or better put, accomodate far more than) HTTP for that matter.

The world is full of non-REST systems and baking in some ‘level of depth’ where required simply isn’t practical. I am more afraid it will cause another, gold-rush based on web, marketing and ads.

]]> By: steve http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-97 steve Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:01:06 +0000 http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/#comment-97 Hi Bill, yes, for some people, it takes awhile for REST to click, and just when you think you totally get it, you find something new to think through. That's not unusual; if you're used to thinking about something a certain way, it takes time to retrain your brain to think about it differently. But once you get REST, you'll wonder 1) why you ever thought the other approach was the best approach, and 2) how you ever missed REST in the first place. Judging from <a href="http://bill.burkecentral.com/" rel="nofollow">your blog</a>, I think you've been personally experiencing this for yourself lately. Regarding your comment about EJB and such, note that I said it's all part of a certain technological line of descent, and I don't think there's any denying that WS-* belongs in that same line of descent, whether you personally care for it or not. ;-) But I clearly see your point about the "local" aspect of the technologies you mention, and I agree that they can be very useful as part of a RESTful implementation. Hi Bill, yes, for some people, it takes awhile for REST to click, and just when you think you totally get it, you find something new to think through. That’s not unusual; if you’re used to thinking about something a certain way, it takes time to retrain your brain to think about it differently.

But once you get REST, you’ll wonder 1) why you ever thought the other approach was the best approach, and 2) how you ever missed REST in the first place. Judging from your blog, I think you’ve been personally experiencing this for yourself lately.

Regarding your comment about EJB and such, note that I said it’s all part of a certain technological line of descent, and I don’t think there’s any denying that WS-* belongs in that same line of descent, whether you personally care for it or not. ;-) But I clearly see your point about the “local” aspect of the technologies you mention, and I agree that they can be very useful as part of a RESTful implementation.

]]> By: Bill Burke http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-93 Bill Burke Tue, 09 Oct 2007 13:34:19 +0000 http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/#comment-93 I think REST is going to have the same problems as AOP in that it takes days, weeks, months for the concepts to click. Also, please don't equate TMs, TP, and EJB, or EJB-like technology with the REST/WS-* debate. All these technologies have a "local" component which fit quite nicely in a RESTful environment. I've already done a couple of <a href="http://bill.burkecentral.com/2007/09/18/distributed-compensation-with-rest-and-jbpm/" rel="nofollow">thought exercises</a>. Even things like BPEL could be salvaged and used with RESTFul web services. I think REST is going to have the same problems as AOP in that it takes days, weeks, months for the concepts to click.

Also, please don’t equate TMs, TP, and EJB, or EJB-like technology with the REST/WS-* debate. All these technologies have a “local” component which fit quite nicely in a RESTful environment. I’ve already done a couple of thought exercises. Even things like BPEL could be salvaged and used with RESTFul web services.

]]> By: Aehso’s Output » ESBs and REST. http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/comment-page-1/#comment-81 Aehso’s Output » ESBs and REST. Sun, 07 Oct 2007 12:20:22 +0000 http://steve.vinoski.net/blog/2007/10/06/the-degenerating-esb-discussion/#comment-81 [...] BTW, I’m reading The Future Of Ideas at the moment, hope to write more about that soon, but it does relate to the notion of control mentioned in Steve’s latest followup post. [...] [...] BTW, I’m reading The Future Of Ideas at the moment, hope to write more about that soon, but it does relate to the notion of control mentioned in Steve’s latest followup post. [...]

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